Forum Activity for @Felipe Jaramillo F.

How Chocolate Gets Its Taste - A Presentation and a Request

Posted in: Chocolate Education

Dear Sebastian,

I appreciate how you always come through with a healthy dose of reality.It should've been obvious that if the components had some sort of chocolate taste, it would be possible to have decent artificial flavors.

Either way I am looking to training taste buds through familiarity. Just like a musician learns to recognize the characteristics and sounds of his favorite musicians or tunes. I can't help it but recognize most of the major sax players I've heard in the last 10 years just by listening to a few seconds of a solo. They all have characteristic traits that I've learned to pick.

Familiarity breeds confidence but I understand curiosity gets one into vast territories that will take a lifetime to master.

All the best,

Felipe

How Chocolate Gets Its Taste - A Presentation and a Request

Posted in: Chocolate Education

Looks interesting - cant wait to see the book

How Chocolate Gets Its Taste - A Presentation and a Request

Posted in: Chocolate Education

I would love to see the presentation. Will you advertise when you will do it for public consumption?

How Chocolate Gets Its Taste - A Presentation and a Request

Posted in: Chocolate Education

You're certainly headed in the right direction with that approach, which is why i didn't say anything earlier. The comment was most directed to Felipe's request around getting individual components, which, in my opinion, if one doesn't have a certain level of background understanding of what drives flavor perception in chocolate, isn't going to be very useful - because while that one compound may be present, it may not be perceived very, very differently in it's pure state at a given level than how you perceive it in chocolate. It's a terribly, terribly complex field - some parts of it are fairly well understood, others less so. You're going to have a hard time finding much publicly published; however that doesn't mean the work's not been done 8-) only that it's a closely guarded valuable! I've been doing this for a long time, and there are many things that i understand pretty well. I'm not even going to let the ink dry on that statement before i follow it by saying there's also lots of things that i don't understand very well, which is part of what makes the world of cocoa so exciting - there's always lots to learn! I need to parse my time somewhere here, because i dont have much of it, and as you point out, many of these topics can easily be a lifetime of study for anyone. I need to be somewhat judicious in what areas i get involved with, as i don't want to leave someone 'hanging' by giving a partial response, knowing that i often disappear for long stretches at a time where i simply don't have the physical means to respond, much less the time to do so 8-)

How Chocolate Gets Its Taste - A Presentation and a Request

Posted in: Chocolate Education

Sebastian -

While I don't make the point in the presentation that some of the chemicals can't be directly experienced, I do make all of the rest of the points, using analogies I learned as an art student about color theory.

The concept is called the "theory of simultaneous contrast," which basically says that any colors next to each other are perceived a particular way. If you change any one of the colors, your perceptions of all of them is going to change. You can change the color itself (shade, tint, and/or hue) and/or you can change the area of color relative to the other colors.

Flavor perception works the same way. It's not just the presence of specific aroma and flavor chemicals, the total quantity and their relative proportion are also important. As you point out, the presence of one aroma chemical and alter the perception of another - the combination is different from each separately. Simultaneous contrast.

More generally to the ChocolateLife community -

All of this is moderated by the way in which aromas and flavors are released in the mouth over time by heat, a process which is in turn moderated by saliva and complicated by the fact that some compounds are water soluble and are encapsulated in fat. And, finally, there are some "tastes" that are actually sensations - astringency is one.

Another point I make in the words that accompany the slides is that each one of these areas is worthy of careers' worth of study. What I am doing is providing an overview that provides a peek at the level of complexity involved.

How does soil micronutrient chemistry affect flavor? We know it does, but I don't know of any credible research that definitively points to the presence (or lack) of a particular nutrient in the soil that leads to the presence of particular chemicals in beans (by what mechanism - uptake, metabolic?) that, when fermented (wild yeast? controlled?) in a particular way (time, temp)will lead to the presence of a particular set of flavor precursor compounds that, when roasted, will result in aroma and flavor compounds that when ground, refined, and conched will lead to a particular flavor being present in the final chocolate.

How Chocolate Gets Its Taste - A Presentation and a Request

Posted in: Chocolate Education

A few points to consider Felipe:

1) Some of the chemicals ID'd in chocolate are not commercially available via food safe production methods

2) Often times, a chemical's flavor will vary by it's concentration. That is, if you have a very little bit of it present, it may taste 'earthy'. if you have that same chemical present at higher concentrations, it may taste 'moldy'.

3) Often times, flavor perception changes with the addition of other chemicals. A chemical that, by it's self, may be perceived as, oh say toasted bread, may when in the presence of other chemicals taste like fruit.

Flavor chemistry in chocolate is very, very complicated. It's one of the reasons there are no good artificial chocolate flavors out there - very few folks know chocolate flavor chemistry well enough to pull it off.

How Chocolate Gets Its Taste - A Presentation and a Request

Posted in: Chocolate Education

Clay,

I enjoyed the presentation. Great points, images and solid type work.

One of the points that caught my attention was the breakdown of some aroma/flavor chemicals. I'm dying of curiosity to smell/taste these pure chemicals and train myself to recognize them better.

Have you ever tried the alpha-amyl cinnamyl acetate, some 2,3,5,6-tetramethyl pyrazine or cocoa hexenal directly?Do you know if there's a way of getting a hold of an aroma/flavor kit?

How Chocolate Gets Its Taste - A Presentation and a Request

Posted in: Chocolate Education

Thank-you, Mr Gordon! I am grateful!

Warmest,

Sarah

How Chocolate Gets Its Taste - A Presentation and a Request

Posted in: Chocolate Education

Sarah:

Thanks for the kind words. I will post the photos here w/ copyright notices embedded in them in the next couple of days.

You (offer open to all ChocolateLife members) are free to use them for classes, with attribution.

They should not be used on a web site, publication, printing for display, or other form of promotion, without seeking my permission first.

How Chocolate Gets Its Taste - A Presentation and a Request

Posted in: Chocolate Education

Mr. Gordon!

This is quite incredible! Once a month, in my shop I give a very, very humble by comparisonpresentationsimilar in concept to this one. How would I go about getting some of these types of photographs to help my visual presentaion?

Did you and Mr. Pollard work together on this?

Wonderful, indeed!

Warmest,

Sarah

How Chocolate Gets Its Taste - A Presentation and a Request

Posted in: Chocolate Education

Jeff:

This discussion is here to help me decide how to flesh out the book. It takes a lot to go from a two-hour lecture to put something together that really meets the needs of the community. Questions like yours will help me do just that, so I really appreciate them.

One thing to note is that each of the areas covered in the presentation is a career's worth of research, and most of the areas may not actively have any formal research going on. So - I can't tell you what exactly in the soil affects flavor, all I can tell you is that the micronutrient chemistry of the soil, and its microbiology (e.g., rhizome population) can.

Chances are, all cacao that's grown contains some amounts of the two chemicals you mention - how do you change the balance of those, deliberately? I don't think anyone knows the answers to those questions.

I can work to be as specific as possible (which addresses the question of applicability of the information) within the limits of what's known.

:: Clay

How Chocolate Gets Its Taste - A Presentation and a Request

Posted in: Chocolate Education

Nat:

The picture at the end is me standing next to an "old man of the forest" a wild cacao tree estimated to be at least 300 years old - and still producing. All of those are trunks as the chupons are never cut.

I am not going to release the audio recording as there are audience interactions that are inaudible. However, I will be reviewing the tape and using it as source material for the eBook.

The Maillard reaction are not the same thing as caramelization and people get them confused. Both are non-enyzymatic browning reactions, with the Maillard reaction being between amino acids and reducing sugars, but do not need (high) heat to happen. Caramelization occurs under conditions of pyrolysis (lack of oxygen) at high temperatures.

Cautionary tales - The one about Hershey is about how his original condensing process soured the milk, but because chocolate was then an industrial product and the hallmark of industrial products is repeatability, the company is still reproducing the mistake, over 110 years later.

Why Belgium - asks why Belgium is known for "the best" chocolate. They didn't invent any machinery or process and there is no magical yeast in the air (as there is in SF for sourdough bread). The answer is (probably) ... Campbell Soup Company.

As for the last one - it'll be in the book. And all the rest will be covered in greater detail.

How Chocolate Gets Its Taste - A Presentation and a Request

Posted in: Chocolate Education

Being very new to chocolate, and after looking at your slides, I would want more application of the principles discussed (maybe you cover that in the lecture).

For example, how does the soil/elevation/harvesting/drying specifically affect the chocolate? What would I do to get the flavors I want?

How do I grow beans withalpha-amyl cinnamyl acetate orcocoa hexenal?

If I grew cacao, and someone said, "hey be careful because it affects the flavor," I wouldn't know what to do with that information. But If someone said, "if you continually expose the pods to degrees over 100F, they will begin to develop a strong coffee flavor," then I would be able to apply that.

Those are just things that would interest me.

How Chocolate Gets Its Taste - A Presentation and a Request

Posted in: Chocolate Education

Nice presentation Clay! That picture at the end is amazing of the wild (?) cacoa in Beni! Is that all the trunks of the cacao?

Willyou release the audio recording? It'd be interesting to fill in some of the gaps in the slides, e.g.you mention the Maillard reaction at the beginning which is key to understand but I didn't see mention of it later. I betyou described something about it. I'd also like to hear the 3 cautionary tales.

-Nat

____________________________

Nat Bletter, PhD

Chocolate Flavormeister

Madre Chocolate

http://madrechocolate.com

How Chocolate Gets Its Taste - A Presentation and a Request

Posted in: Chocolate Education

To All ChocolateLife members -

I gave a talk last night to the Experimental Cuisine Collective at NYU. Attached is a PDF of the slides I used for the talk, entitled, "How Chocolate Gets Its Taste."

The idea for the talk was to examine - in as much detail as possible given the time available - the various factors that contribute to flavor development and perception in cacao and chocolate, from the genetics of the bean through terroir, manufacturing, and finally sensory evaluation.

Of course, the slides cover only the high level concepts, there was a lot of additional material presented and a bunch of very interesting questions in follow up (my audio recording runs to about 1h45m).

I am interested in getting feedback and questions as I am considering gathering all the information and self-publishing in various eBook formats.

Interesting idea? Useful? Any topic area you think should be covered (or not)? I'd be happy to explore and answer questions and other areas of interest here in this discussion, though obviously the book will be more organized and focused.

Thanks,
:: Clay

updated by @Clay Gordon: 04/23/15 23:29:28

Any great tasting raw chocolate?

Posted in: Opinion

Brian,I am with you in that I am not a raw foodie, and am not concerned with the definition of "raw." I do, however, enjoy the flavor. It tastes lighter to me, a little fruitier, and more subtle in flavor.

My preferred raw chocolate bars include LuLu's "Maca Love" bar, LuLu's "Aztec bar," and Fearless Chocolate's "MIdnight" bar. You might also try Sacred Chocolate's "Mylk" bar. It has a much different flavor than what you might expect, but it is worth trying for the experience of it.

Cheers,

Jessica

Any great tasting raw chocolate?

Posted in: Opinion

Nat,

I would love to understand more about bean-to-bar Raw production. I am curious how you sterilize the beans without roasting. I came across a forum post where Clay talked about potentially using UV lights. What have you found to be effective?

Secondly, Im curious how easy it is to remove the husk without roasting. My understanding is that the husk is loosened through the roasting process. What is your method?

I am super curious about this process and am in the beginning steps towards creating a full picture, so basically any information you want to share, I am open to hearing.

Thanks so much,

Jessica

Any great tasting raw chocolate?

Posted in: Opinion

Hi Brian,

The thing is very fewpeople makebean-to-bar "raw"chocolate aside from Pacari, Gnosis on specialLimited Edition Bars, and us occasionally. Don't know if anyone's coming from anywhere in the states, Ecuador, or Hawaii (for ours) where they can find theseto Peru, but at leastyou know know which to aim for.

-Nat

____________________________

Nat Bletter, PhD

Chocolate Flavormeister

Madre Chocolate

http://madrechocolate.com

Any great tasting raw chocolate?

Posted in: Opinion

I'm not a raw foodie, don't care about health benefits, doesn't matter to me how raw is defined, or if its even possible. Just curious if anyone on this board has ever tried any great tasting chocolate that calls itself raw?

Here in Peru there is none available, i've never been able to try any. Anyone willing to comment on flavor/quality of raw brands, or recommend one that i could have someone bring down sometime? Again I don't care if its really "raw". Just seems like unroasted and presumably unconched chocolate would be bitter, astringent, and if the beans are fermented, vinegar-y.

any suggestions?

updated by @brian horsley: 04/12/15 16:23:58

small chocolate climate control display for Fair events?

Posted in: Geek Gear - Cool Tools (Read-Only)

If you bang your head on any market issues let me know, glad to either row with you or maybe explain some ideas around them. 4 years taught us more than I'd ever like to know.

If there is a will there's a way; you have a great product and personality so I expect you'll find a warm reception.

small chocolate climate control display for Fair events?

Posted in: Geek Gear - Cool Tools (Read-Only)

andy - thanks for the thorough explanation. i see that it is quite a process, but you're really thought it through (and probably learned a lot by doing/mistakes/what ifs). DFM does have electricity, so that might help somewhat. though we'd still need to address the relative humidity issue very carefully. thanks so much for weighing in with your detailed explanation! with our unseasonably warm and early spring, i am very cautious about how we handle the market! cheers.

small chocolate climate control display for Fair events?

Posted in: Geek Gear - Cool Tools (Read-Only)

Oh yea and my knowledge is for those who do not have permanent vending. We've had to vend at day or partial day mainly outdoor with rarely electric. Change the scope to something more friendly and the solutions change.

small chocolate climate control display for Fair events?

Posted in: Geek Gear - Cool Tools (Read-Only)

Casey! Davidson market, sounds like fun. It's always been way too far for us to travel but it's a nice market!Again there is no perfect solution. Everything has tolerance and associated costs.When outdoors you have ambient temps and humidity.Every time you open a holding container, electric or not, you will lose temperature and introduce humidity.Being busy will increase this exchange by a magnitude.No solution will obviate this, and most if not all will only solve the cold rebound. Ie how long it takes to turn to a cold temp.Another axiom you come across is the faster you get the rebound the more water crystals manifest. At least for those of us in humidity belts. You see you trap the humidity then the cold creates a dew point. You can keep your product cold but then keeping it dry becomes your next hurdle. There is always something.So.. What we came up with after taking coolers, freezers, and fridges out--you create a series of containers. No high tech thing needed, no dry ice either--humidity is worse than lack of ultimate chill.Standard freezer packs. Large squares work great. For each cooler pick up 3 or 4.For us in June, 85-95' heat, 70+% humidity we would take 3 to 4 coolers. The lot of product for the day is organized by splitting the contents among the coolers in somewhat even amounts--this can be also axed by items of popularity. Bag your items in their categories, this is assuming your products are already boxed or packaged too. If you are selling individual chocolates, we stopped this but when we did we handeled it similarly. Large tubs replicated. The main goal of bagging is to keep moisture out by giving everything more time. In this model you may breach the container but if you keep additional humidity from other items you can sustain one cooler longer before needing to transfer.Ok so you start the morning in one cooler, that's one cooler that has been breached, only one getting contaminated by air and humidity. The day wears on and you migrate remaining products to next cooler, and onwards as sales or slowing of coolering or increased humidity/liquid becomes a nuisance.Time of year, craziness of weather, all dictate the speed and need to handle things in such an order but you do it a while you find the knack for keeping pristine chocolates and butter ganaches safe all day long.On the flip side my love of winter has grown. In December I need no ice, and can lay all produce out. Makes me so freakin happy. I abhor a July afternoon at a 5'oclock market. Luckily we don't have to do many of those anymore. So! No cords, little clean up, and just freeze your packs again--gtg. I've always wanted something slicker but slicker has a huge cost or a huge weight and both always end up breaking or sucking at some time or another. "Keep it simple stupid" really seems to boomerang me on this one.

small chocolate climate control display for Fair events?

Posted in: Geek Gear - Cool Tools (Read-Only)

Here is an Update...right from EIC solutions...

Based on the information you provided, without an internal heat load you would require approximately 1500BTUs if the ambient temperature is 100F and you would like the case to be 70F. We have a 1500 BTU unit however it is $2760.00 and it is too large to mount on the size of your case. Our units are not designed for this sort of application. I find a website below that has some blogs about alternative cooling for this sort of application. I hope that you are successful in finding a solution, enjoy your weekend.

...and they linked me here to CL... LOL Well...at least She tried. Good thing I don't have a time limit on this thing.

small chocolate climate control display for Fair events?

Posted in: Geek Gear - Cool Tools (Read-Only)

LOL Well at least I know I'm thinking in the right line here- I just spent a few days looking into various Coleman and Koolatron coolers and a few cheap wine coolers. Even took a trip today to the local Restaurant Supply shop to check their "Room of broken Dreams" (Used items from Failed Restaurants and shops)

I was toying with the idea of just buying a Koolatron just to see what I have to work with but for about $20USD more I could get one of the wine coolers Cheebs mentioned. I have a lighting contact that can give a nice discount on some LED lighting and light diffusers. So it's just a waiting game for the paycheck to hit before I start. Oh and I need a local Plexi worker. Ugh. I should write this down.

I wish someone would make a Youtube Vid on this.

small chocolate climate control display for Fair events?

Posted in: Geek Gear - Cool Tools (Read-Only)

Carlos -

Did you see these? Twine . it wouldn't take much to use the built-in temperature sensor to build an on-off switch to keep the temp regulated within very narrow limits, especially when the units are DC powered.

:: Clay

small chocolate climate control display for Fair events?

Posted in: Geek Gear - Cool Tools (Read-Only)

I've been toying with the idea of cannibalizing a small wine cooler for the TE guts. Something like a Vinotemp or Cuisinart in the 20-30 bottle range. Why? Because of the thermostatic control. Most come with a very nice digital temperature controller with a probe. I've often seen damaged units on sale cheap at the local warehouse store.

From personal experience I know the Cuisinart can hold 50F even when filled with bottles -- or chocolate LOL, as that was my very first chocolate cooler.

This would make the display's temperature adjustable. In my case the TE cooler just runs full-tilt all the time and sometimes can get a little too cold, especially if the display is left filled overnight with the lights turned off.

updated by @Carlos Eichenberger: 09/09/15 05:41:08

small chocolate climate control display for Fair events?

Posted in: Geek Gear - Cool Tools (Read-Only)

Roy -

Cheebs talks about cannibalizing a used portable thermoelectric cooler he found.

Here's a new one on Amazon that could be sacrificed.

Brands to look for include Coleman, Engel, Koolatron - you can probably cannibalize any of those for the cooling electronics needed. Not all units are thermoelectric, however, and I can't vouch for any specific model or manufacturer. Just that there are ways to get the TE electronics pretty inexpensively.

small chocolate climate control display for Fair events?

Posted in: Geek Gear - Cool Tools (Read-Only)

andy - howdy neighbor! this is a timely discussion. i'll be selling at the davidson farmers market starting in april and wondered if you could elaborate on your 'series of coolers' process. i'm debating a portable electric cooler vs. small glass-front wine cooler (humidity being my fear) vs. your process. however, not sure if you are starting at a very cold (electric?) cooler to a gel pack cooler to ambient atmospheric temp? could you explain further? i'd assume you have a step-up process so temp changes occur gradually.

i'd email you directly, but i think everyone on this discussion would benefit from your reply. look forward to your reply. especially since you 'enjoy' the same hot/humid climate conditions as i!

thanks.

small chocolate climate control display for Fair events?

Posted in: Geek Gear - Cool Tools (Read-Only)

True. Funny how there are so many HEATING small display cases but none of what we need out there. Did you get the TE AC unit from a company or from ebay searches? Any advice on what to search on or where to go?

Thanks again for all the advice so far

small chocolate climate control display for Fair events?

Posted in: Geek Gear - Cool Tools (Read-Only)

Oh don't bother with EIC their products are way too expensive. And, they're wrong, the TE AC does work, I actually have a 1000 btu unit in a larger display case (4 tier, 4 foot wide) but that one was $1700 -- ouch! Still cheaper than the $4k plus display cases available.

small chocolate climate control display for Fair events?

Posted in: Geek Gear - Cool Tools (Read-Only)

Yeah...I just got a quote for the thermoelectric cooler unit from the link... Ouch. AAC-120-4XT thermoelectric air conditioner is $850.00 They flat out say it won't work...they swear up and down a refrigerant based solution is required. I'm starting to hash out just what they suggest to use. I'll post what they say when I get it.

small chocolate climate control display for Fair events?

Posted in: Geek Gear - Cool Tools (Read-Only)

Roy, the trays are also custom-made. Any decent plexiglas shop should be able to duplicate those no problem. I also found these online, but boy are they pricey!

small chocolate climate control display for Fair events?

Posted in: Geek Gear - Cool Tools (Read-Only)

Andy -

An interesting repurposing of equipment. One of the key points to consider is the cooling capacity, which can be expressed as the maximum difference between ambient temperature and the lowest the fridge can go.

If the temperature outside is 88F can the humidor take it down 20F? Especially when the door is going to keep on being opened and closed.

I think it's a great idea, just a technical parameter to ask about before purchasing.

small chocolate climate control display for Fair events?

Posted in: Geek Gear - Cool Tools (Read-Only)

Thanks a lot for the info ,Clay!

i'm already doing a design and i have pulled out my swiss knife to build one!!!

small chocolate climate control display for Fair events?

Posted in: Geek Gear - Cool Tools (Read-Only)

Love the trays too! What company did you use for them- or was that part of your package?

small chocolate climate control display for Fair events?

Posted in: Geek Gear - Cool Tools (Read-Only)

Wow Cheebs! That is Sweet! um...no pun intended here... I'll take a look and see if we can MacGyver something. Being able to customize is an advantage...

Thanks!

small chocolate climate control display for Fair events?

Posted in: Geek Gear - Cool Tools (Read-Only)

Haha thanks Clay took the words right out of my... fingers?

As far as costs the cabinet, LED lighting, power supply and trays, custom made here in Guatemala, came out to ~$800. The cooler I got for like $39 on a liquidation sale online.

small chocolate climate control display for Fair events?

Posted in: Geek Gear - Cool Tools (Read-Only)

Antonino -

I think the point is that Cheebs had this built custom. The general approach, which is to use thermolectric coolers, is a very viable approach for adapting something that could be simpler in construction (e.g., does not have a curved glass front).

I think what he did was to buy - and then cannibalize - a unit like this one , taking the cooling elements and electronics and building them into the case. The Mobicool unit linked to specifies cooling to 20 degrees (C!) below ambient on a DC power supply.

There are also companies that just sell the thermoelectric cooler units . One thing about units like these is that they are designed to work with active loads, e.g., machinery that is generating heat. That might make them more suitable for use in places where there is a direct or indirect solar load.

The nice thing about using the TE coolers is that they also dehumidify.

And, finally, it is left as an exercise for the reader to see how they might be used to create really quite inexpensive cooling tunnels.

small chocolate climate control display for Fair events?

Posted in: Geek Gear - Cool Tools (Read-Only)

great, how much it cost? where can you buy something like that in EU? i live in South Africa and is gonna be hard to get one!

small chocolate climate control display for Fair events?

Posted in: Geek Gear - Cool Tools (Read-Only)

Hi, as most people here have stated, you will probably not find a commercial product that does what you need. In my case I've been using, with great success, a thermoelectric cooler to keep my custom-made display case cool. The beauty of this is it operates on 12 VDC. I use a power supply to convert from 120VAC. It easily cools 15 degrees below ambient. Vinotemp makes the TE units, as well as many other manufacturers. In my case I used a unit from a Mobicool portable active cooler. You can see it on the case's left hand side. Lighting is LED, also powered by the 12V power supply.

Here it is filled with bonbons:

small chocolate climate control display for Fair events?

Posted in: Geek Gear - Cool Tools (Read-Only)

I have sturggled with the same challenge. The weather gets warm and I can't do my chocolates at Farmer's Markets and Fairs---I think a table top cigar Humidor would be a good thing. They are small, portable,and will control temperature AND humitity. There are several online--- also the "kits" for doing it your self are cheaper